Dear Nawabbarians-
Do you have any physical address of our ancestors in Kashmir? Did any one ever visited? Is it in Pak or Indian side, does anyone know for sure? Please provide us details. I hope Reaz uncle or Iftekar bhai can give some realistic information.
It would be great to know the exact location or address. What about a group tour in coming years? :-)
Arshad
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31 comments:
are we really from kashmir ?
To best of my knowledge our ancestor are from the Indian side of Kashmir from a place called Hazrat Bal. They were the care taker of this Famouse shrine (Hazrat Bal) where it is said that Hair of our Prophet Hazrat Muhammed (SM) is being preservd.
Khawaja Saifullah
Son of Late Nawabzada Khawaja Hafizullah
The term Khwaja (although mis-spelled in many different forms like Hodja (Turkish), Khawaja (Armenian) etc ….) is Persian (Farsi). This should not be confused with the large Khoja Ismailia(Shia) community living in Mumbai and Karachi.
It (Khwaja) was and is still widely used in Central Asia (Uzbekistan/ Tajikistan in particular). Large number of them migrated to South Asia during the time of Delhi Sultanate for different reason. Kashmir was most likely a temporary haul. Most likely before Kashmir it was Uzbekistan.
Before Uzbekistan, research in progress!!
any physical address or exact location?
I am curious...exactly how does K. Saifullah..to the best of his knowledge....know of this ancestory...is it through research? Just an older relative passing on information that sounds "exciting"? Just how did he come upon this Hazrat Bal connection? By the way whatever happened to that branch of the family that settled in parts of Sylhet? Anyone know? I will wait, with breatheless anticipation to hear the answer on this one! Thanks
I did some search and research. In my humble opinion, Kashmiri Khawjas and Punjabi Khawjas may not be the same in terms of "human species" within the class system of original Bhahmachari hinduism or "Kashmiri pundits. I think Khawaja of Kashmir must have converted later to Islam and they were either "KASHMIRI PUNDIT BRAHMIN" or came from similar stock/strain within the Aryan stock of upper Kashmir Valley or even came from present Chitral area mixed with some Greek blood or later mixed. However, I may be wrong and I am not quoting from any DNA testing.
What is known regarding Punjabi Khawjas is they originally came and converted to Islam from the western districts of the Punjab. They converted from Hinduism to Islam and belong to the Khatri and Arora classes. Khawaja is a term derived from the (Arabic and (Persian meaning "a wealthy, respectable person".Although conversions to Islam in the Punjab started in the 11th century, it is uncertain when the Khatri and Arora traders embraced Islam. The earliest reference to Khawajas in the Punjab literature is in the Heer Ranjha of Waris Shah (1735-1790):
The beauty of her [Heer's] red lips slays rich Khawajas and Khatris in bazaar, like Qizilbash [Afghan soldiers] troopers riding out of the royal camp into bazaar with a sword. These verses of Heer Ranjha, written by Waris Shah in 1766, describe the conditions of the post-Mughal Punjab. Khatris and Khawajas occupied an important place in the economy of the Punjabi towns. This was probably the earliest reference to the emerging role of Hindu and Muslim Khatris as rich traders, instead of performing their Vedic functions as fighters and governors.
Khawajas in the census
The first census of the Punjab was conducted by Ibbetson and MacLagan in 1883 and 1892. According to their reports, the Khawajas of Bhera in Shahpur, Sargodha District were converted from Khatris, and those from Jhang were said to be converted from Arora. At Chiniot in Jhang District, the Khawajas are mainly Khatris, though some are Arora. They reported the following sections (gotras) of Khatris from Chiniot:
Adal, Behrara, Churra, Maggun (or Maghoon), Sahgal, Wadhaun (or Vadhavan), Wihara, Talwar, Puri, Topra.
The following Arora sections were reported from Chiniot:
Tarneja, Goruwala, Khurana, Dhingra, Chawala.
The sections of Khawajas from Bhera were reported as follows:
Vohra, Sahgal, Kapur, Sethi, Duggal, Rawar (or Ror), Gorwala, Magun, Mehndru, Motali. These are all Khatri sections.
The Khawajas of Layyah, Punjab have following Khatri sections:
Kapur, Puri, Tandan and Gambhir.Ibbetson, Denzil; Edward MacLagan and H.A. Rose. A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province, vol. II, 1911, pp. 537-538.
Chiniotis and Saigols
Khawaja Shaikhs of Chiniot, a town of Jhang District, known as Chiniotis, are some of the leading industrialists of Pakistan. Most of these families started in the leather and hide trade in undivided India. Due to religious reasons, Hindus never ventured into this field. The Khawajas migrated as far as Kolkata in the late 19th or early 20th century and started business. After independence in 1947, they diversified into other industries such as textiles, ginning, chemicals, shipping, engineering, etc. As per a survey in 1970,Shahid-ur-Rehman, "Who Owns Pakistan?", online publication there were five Chinioti groups—Colony, Crescent, Nishat, Mannos and Maulabakhash—in the top 42 groups registered on the Karachi Stock Exchange. In 1997 this number increased to 14 out of 45 groups.
The Sahgals (or Saigals) from Chakwal are another leading business family of Pakistan. They are related to the Chinioti families through marriage. The Saigols are known as Punjabi Shaikh instead of Khawaja Shaikh. See also Punjabi Khatri and Punjabi Shaikh.
Distinguished Khawaja Shaikhs
Aftab Ahmed Vohra, Chief Executive of Vohra Group of Industries
Mian Mohammad Mansha, Chairman of Nishat Group of Industries
References
We should think there must be some old book or Pandoolipi by the old folks of DNF regarding their origin in Kashmir that can be pinpointed in terms of exact location and the species that they may belong to in Kashmir.
Respectfully Submitted
Iftekhar Hassan
It is called the Human Species! That is the species we belong to! All of us! By the way thanks for your attempt to connect the Khawjas to the various groups mentioned in your "essay" on Khwajas, Khawajas, and the rest of them!
Frankly I don't see what your comments have to do with the members of the DNF! Aroras, Heer Ranjha, Vohra, Mansha....??? I appreciate your effort in researching whatever you thought you were looking for, however, it an effort wasted and with absolutely no connection with the DNF! Next time think it out!
Mr. K.M. Asef who used to work at the
American School in Dhaka had apparently visited Kashmir in the 80s and had made contact with some Khwajas there.
He and his wife both passed away a few years ago. His children may know of his trip to Kashmir.
Regards.
- Belal
Mr. Iftekar's article is objective, subjective and brilliant.
Khurshid
Mr. Iftikar 99999999999 gun salutes to you. What an effort , what an in depth information, in regards to the discussion.
another cut and paste job by iftekhar hassan...brilliant :)
Mr. Anonymous,
It does not matter if it is cut and paste. Obviously, the man did took his time, searched,looked around and put his input for all of us to see....what is out there.
Some of you are simply jealous and you dont have the ability to do good for yourself or anybody else. In simple words, they are call pure coward, who hide as anonymous and ambush others who makes positive contribution.
I do not come to this site except some Sunday. Please do reply me at kayum11@yahoo.com.
I like to quote the following:-
"those who hates...their personality reflect within the first impression of meeting"
Ayn Rand
Kayum
Iftekhar bhai,
Very insightful. Good job !
- Belal
Info;
This title was originally used by Persian speaking people living North of Oxus river (Current day Uzbekistan, Tajikistan etc and to some extent people in the Caspian region as well (Armenia/Azerbaijan)). They were minority there. The Majority Uzbeks, Turkmen’s, Kyrgyz, Azeri’s etc spoke in “Chagatai” Turkish (mixture of Mongolian and Turkish), which is written in Cyrillic script today borrowed from Russian. Babar (Founder of the Mogul Empire) was a Chagatai Turk, although his court language was Persian!!!! This Chagatai Turkish is different form the Turkish spoken in Turkey today, which is “Ottoman” Turkish written in Latin script introduce by Mustapha Kamal after he abolished the Arabic script.
Regions North of Oxus were referred to as Turan (pronounced Too –r –aan ), to separate itself from the South, which was Persia (roughly Present day Afghanistan and Iran). Later the Turkish speaking population of Turan also adopted the title. Great Sufis like Khwaja Bahauddin Naqshband, Khwaja Parsa, Uthman Harouni and counteless others were all “Chagatai”. From Kazakhstan to Uzbekistan the entire landscape is dotted with the mausoleums of such Sufis.
However in South Asia, Khwaja Moinuddin Chisty(Azmeer), Nizamuddin and Bakhtiar Kaki of Delhi, Fariduddin Ganj Shakr of Punjab were all Persian speaking Turani.
Merchants in Armenia also adopted the title. They were called “Koja”. There was large number of them living in India even during the British time. In Turkey proper it became “Hodja”. Thus we have the famous Hodja Nasiruddin and his tales !
During the time of Sultanate of Delhi and later even during Mughal time the court in Delhi were always divided between these rival groups, who considered the other side “lesser Muslim”, although all spoke in Persian (Farsi), which was the court language ! On top of that there was also a powerful Persian/Iranian Shia group. The animosity between these rival fractions was directly responsible for the fall of the Delhi Sultanate and later to some extent for the disintegration of the Mogul Empire.
The vast Ismaili Shia community living in India’s West coast (Mumbai, Surat, Karachi etc) were also called “Khoja”. However this was used to define a community and not individuals.
Ironically the slave enunach who served as palace guards for different Sultans and other lesser noble’s were also called “khoja”.
Now we have a real dilemma! Those Khwaja/Hodja/Koja (doesn’t matter which way you write it) who were living in Kashmir valley, were they;
i.Persian speaking Turani ?
ii.Persian speaking Chagatai ?
iii.Migrants from the Caspian region (Azerbaijan/Armenia) ?
iv. Shia converts to Sunni Islam from Persia(Iran) ?
v.Local Muslims who adopted the title to move up the social ladder ?
vi.Or something Else ??
One thing for sure this was a title mainly used by Sunni Muslims, irrespective of their ethnic background outside the Arab world.
It is difficult to pin point an exact location. However anyone planning to travel could start from Samarkand, Uzbekistan (Which has a treasure trove of information) and end in India held Kashmir !!
I really appreciate your effort in trying to establish a tie between all these different groups of people and the DNF Khawjas, but as brilliant a try as this is, unfortunately there is really no connection to be established, except perhaps forcibly! Ultimately the people of DNF are Khawjas, unparalled and unique. DNF ancestors came from...Kashmir?? and it is my understanding, that as they directed their journey through India towards Bengal, these enterprising folk traded and accumulated money until such time, upon reaching Dacca, that one of the earlier Nawabs married the woman from Bungsal and usurped her wealth to further strengtened the family position! No disrespect, but what do all the Khawjas and all it's variations, Punjabi, Khatri, Brahmin converts, etc have to do with the members of DNF, past and present? Here is a family that has seen it's past glory diminish to nothing, today! Torn apart by the greedy pursuit of land/real estate wealth, family members have attacked each other and shown their true color. This is the reality of DNF, not all the comparisons and attempts to glorify because of past "good deeds"! DNF Khawjas being somehow compared to others with similar surnames is a forced issue, purposeless and quite like labeling the group from Paribagh as Khawjas. This too is a forced issue, either by the people of Paribagh or others that wish to be forcibly "all inclusive"! I realize that they may sometimes prefer to do that themselves, perhaps for purposes of convenience, like manuvering themselves in where they really don't belong, like family committees, etc. But reality is that they are infact Syeds and so shall they remain!
This ought to raise some eyebrows! What do you think?
Well said old chap! Well said!
I quite agree the way you put it.
Iftekhar's research was good, but may not relate to our branch of Khwajas who were true Muslims to the nth degree and certainly not converts by any iota.
Punjabi, Khatri, Brahmin converts,
my foot!
My foot? !
I thought Rg veda says came from "my foot" is sudras and Abraham was jewish.
Aryan...> Zorostrian....>...Brahmins....hinducast(s) than muslim?..may be?
lol
Respectfully submitted
Iftekhar Hassan
Why a simple post always ends up in mud slinging? All I wanted to know if anyone has a physical address of our ancestors in Kashmir. And why all the anony-Mouses are picking on Ifthekar bhai? He is simply trying to resolve the paradox.
999999999999999 gun salutes to all DNF members!
Any one for DNA testing?
Arshad
Mr. K.M. Asef who used to work at the
American School in Dhaka had apparently visited Kashmir in the 80s and had made contact with some Khwajas there.
He and his wife both passed away a few years ago. His children may know of his trip to Kashmir.
Regards.
- Belal
Mr. Ifthekar....Truth be told...your research is quite good, although unrelated and pointless. I do want to acknowledge your hard work in discovering the myriad of information which you have given the readers of this site. Thank you for your effort!
Speaking of the DNF folk.... I have heard through the grapevine that a certain female family member, closely associated to the current elected PM of BD has managed to illegally sell a major piece of real estate for a large sum of Takas (for whatever that'a worth)....does the Salimullah Orphanage ring a bell!!! Oh! By the way...I believe this family member's last name sounds like the Orphange's first name! Care to take a guess, anyone! WILL THE REAL DNF FAMILY PLEASE STAND AND TAKE A BOW!!! True Muslims to 9th Degree, HUH!?!? I suppose those DNF members that no longer live in BD are SOL! Right? Have their rights been stolen, usurped, etc by the likes of this orphange-selling female! What about the membership make up of different influential comittees? I hear the names of people that are not even Khawja, much less born into the family....Oh! But wait...you have those who wanted to hijack such committees and not only impose their will, but keep for themselves what rightfully belong to another. All because of the creation of BD and the pre-BD and /or the subsequuent departure of those family members who chose to live in other parts of the world! Mr. %$#@^&* and others TAKE A BOW!!!
oh dayum..so i'm not real khati bangali huh =(
WOW!! so many thoughts and so many things to be notified immediately... esp for me.. yes i also know that we Khwajas have come across from the land of Kashmir..but didn't know from which side. but my question is if we r frm indian kashmir side then is Qazi Tauqeer of Fame Gurukul could coincidently be some part or i should say some kind of 'Rishtedar' (family member) i guess... have a close look on it..seriously.
“…that one of the earlier Nawabs married the woman from Bungsal and usurped her wealth to further strengtened the family position!”
Observation: The person you are trying to mention here is Khwaja Alimullah (father of Nawab Ghani). K Alimullah was not a Nawab himself. He married to a widow by the name of Khairunnesa (mother of Abdul Hakim). Besides the rich widow he had eight other wives. In absence of research documents- The intention of his marriage as presented by you is purely hypothetical and hollow. This is merely “Nani Dadi ka kissa” in absence of research documents.
“…Here is a family that has seen its past glory diminish to nothing, today! Torn apart by the greedy pursuit of land/real estate wealth, family members have attacked each other and shown their true color.”
Observation: With all due respect I have to add that ironically you are also a member of the same family. In my opinion, the rise of the family was due to Permanent Settlement contract concluded by the Lord Cornwallis administration in 1793 (Section 7, Regulation 1, 1793). The family was not “torn apart by the greedy pursuit of wealth” as pointed before rather the East Bengal State Acquisition and Tenancy Act (1950) nailed the family coffin.
“quite like labeling the group from Paribagh as Khawjas. This too is a forced issue, either by the people of Paribagh or others that wish to be forcibly "all inclusive"!… But reality is that they are in fact Syeds and so shall they remain.”
Observation: Not a single paribaghians I came across use Khwaja as his/her last name. They prefer Syed, Salim, Omar, Hyder or Bhaduri.
“…but as brilliant a try as this is, unfortunately there is really no connection to be established”
Observation: The very same truth applies to your comments (Paribagh, women from Bungsal..) which are partially irrelevant to the original topic discussed above. Instead od island hopping please focus on one point.
“…I realize that they may sometimes prefer to do those themselves, perhaps for purposes of convenience, like maneuvering themselves in where they really don't belong, like family committees, etc.…What about the membership make up of different influential committees? I hear the names of people that are not even Khawja, much less born into the family....”
Observation:Each and every person who owns as little as .0001 anna share has a right. This .001 anna share ownership could have been obtained through marriage or by hereditary rights (paternal/maternal) or by will. This right is not conditional with “Khwaja” being the last name. Some members opted paternal last name over the maternal one while some abandoned Khwaja surname for other reason. The source of share ownerships dictates the right to run for office of B Association or the membership of MAW Trust (or both). As far I know the elections are very democratic in nature. Other share holders like you and me send them to the office to speak/fight for us. This is not Hitler’s Germany where only pure Aryan can survive.
“…WILL THE REAL DNF FAMILY PLEASE STAND AND TAKE A BOW!!!”
Remark: Who is going to fill up the vacuum? Who dares to test popularity among shareholders in the upcoming October election?
“.... I have heard through the grapevine” “…for a large sum of Takas (for whatever that’s worth “…Allow me to free you from the windmills of your mind.”
Observation: Where grapevine is the basis of knowledge it is difficult to shed light or free someone. Please be specific on allegations.
“.... …Are you helping hide facts?”
Observation: No I am not in any love and lost situation to do so. Please first reveal your identity and than feel free to open the Pandora’s Box to show the cards- if there is any.
“...Seems to me that names of other family members have been mentioned in the various blog...why not xx's name!.”
Observation: Please don’t assume and draw conclusion without facts. Feel free
to dig in the archive folders.
“…It is interesting that xx's name has been deleted …Why?”
Answer: Any decision to delete or modify a comment is not of any particular individual rather reflects the opinion of all the members of the website team.
Any comment/posting will be deleted or modified if it has
1. Vulgar or sexual content,
2. Indecent personal attack or
3. Deem against the greater interest of the DNF.
4. Meets one or all the criteria mentioned above and the posting is from “anonymous” without any signature.
DNF website team will not expose itself for any defamation lawsuit or ruin relationship with one family member at the expense of other. This decision to edit is not only critical but also difficult. We as a team of moderator have the right to draw a line where freedom of speech ends.
This website is visited by family members and non family members alike- Who holds the family on a very high ground. Let us not mar their expectations.
This website aims to foster unity and understanding among family members through information. Let us continue debate with healthy constructive attitude.
Anas Khwaja
Anonymous,
I had warned you before about posting irresponsible comments.
Whether a person is from Paribagh or Nawabbari. You can positively critique a person's comment in this forum not attack them. We reserve the right to modify, delete or remove or comment as we please.
You're comment(comment posted just before Anas Khwaja's response) is being removed now.
- Belal
DNF Website Team
First of all, I shall most certainly thank you all and my thanks are without end directed to those,who wrote and had kind words for me including those who disagree with my point.
I think healthy debate, open and frank exchange of ideas in a civilized manner within this forum (DNF WEBSITE)are part of high cultural values that DNF members profess and that is what most members wants outsiders to know DNF not only as old colonial faded glory but supreme cultured family from Bengal, that are being reborn with highly educated members.
Look ! Think ! and tell your friends that the DNF website is "VERY" unique. Because, DNF is unique. No other website exist within the www system that is even close to DNF website.
Eachg and every member of the DNF from fathers or mothers side should be proud of young men like Anas, Belal, Arshad and their respective wife's. Thank them for putting up such a great idea into reality, for all of us to enjoy.
I take liberty of this opportunity to advise those who disagree with me related to the origin of Kashmiri Khawja or more objectivly DNF Khawjas in Kashmir.
As I said I may be wrong. However, my gut feeling is "Kashmiri Khawjas indeed are converts from Kashmiri pundit hindoos. Western Punjab is not far away from the Vale and Kashmiri proper. If Khatri hindoos can convert why not Brahmin hindoos?
As far as DNA testing is concern, I guess we can try, but, where do find a pure Kashmiri Khawja within DNF in Bangladesh or anywhere?
I guess, if 21st century jews can trace their link to Moses and 10 tribes to claim their purity. DNF can too. Beside only 1% of the test is all it needs.
Who pays for it? Associan "A" or Association "B" ? (NO FLAME HERE)Just being little funny.
LOL
Respectfully Submitted
Iftekhar Hassan
Anas/Belal: For now, I will rest my words! Both of you have made irresponsible assumptions (I am sure you know what happens when you assume), ranging from my identity to exactly what connections I attempted to establish between articles. Regarding the comments made by members of the (MAW-only an acronym?...I thank you for identifying the appropriate committee)...If you or anyone disagrees with my contention then let's have a look at minutes of all the meetings that took place and I am sure either I will be proven a liar or vindicated in my assertions. I have never claimed on behalf on anyone that their rights never existed,instead my words explained the usurption of the individual's right(s) to collect, legally, rightfully what is theirs! There is a vast difference! Perhaps you ought to try to read it next time.... But enough said for now! I will return and write in any format and/or fashion YOU TWO want to choose!
For starters...
Take responsibility for your comment and sign your name at the end of it.
- Belal
Home Minister(also director of passport)Khwaja Kamel can issue "Purple Khawaja Passport" and raise the fund for DNA testing.
Ha ha ha
Khwaja Sharifuddin
UNSSR
Khawja Kamel?
Son of Pinni Mia?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOH...HEHEHEHEHEHEHE
Groovy! Groovy! Groovy!
Respectfully Submitted
Iftekhar Hassan
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